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  1. #181
    Registered User Kane99's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Something to compete over. Other than that everything is fine.

    Don't base anything off of 1v1 dueling, doing that only made this mess that we sit in right now.

  2. #182
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    ^Base it off what then? 1v1 duels do matter, as do group battles, they both share equal importance in balancing PvP.

    And kilandros, I agree with you, archers need some type of way to make bows shield hollow. With my melee D now completely useless against any char with decent gear and maxed attack skill because of the horrible weeping mod. Archers need something to freaking compete.

    At least if you made loot-gen bows able to be shield hollow I could brass one slightly and stand a chance against these insane attack mods made possible by mukkir house item and salt/ash.

    Still, it wouldn't fix the fact that in a group battle an archer has to constantly switch bows to go from melee to mage, while all other characters can keep the exact same weapon (and shield) out all the time with no real penalties. It makes it so archers can easily be targetted and owned by a smart group.

  3. #183
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilandros
    Make bows shield hollow in pk. Problem solved and everything is balanced.
    Bows are shield hollow. Are you talking about imbued bows? You realize how badly a rail gunning archer would out damage a melee? At most they usually just have to up their bar to half bar. They would basically be doing full power sword damage without have to power up their swings all the way. Not to mention those new cold arrows do rediculous damage and the 50% evades they could get with +32 melee D.

  4. #184
    Registered User Kane99's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Coped
    ^Base it off what then? 1v1 duels do matter, as do group battles, they both share equal importance in balancing PvP.
    1v1 is balanced, but they shouldn't base all PK changes off of 1v1 like they have been doing.

    I don't find it fun having to fight (as a mage) a sword char that can 3 hit me if he is lucky, an archer that hits for around 40-50 on speed through my AL 691 average AL suit, and a mage firing war spells at me trying to backshot me. (all at once). War magic costs the most, yet crap skills like Ua, sword, and bow are harder to dodge and do more damage in pvp.

    Back in the day people would at least stand a chance, now it's shield and chug until god answers one of your prayers. Why is it like this? Because people who sucked at PvP couldn't kill people so they had to upgrade all the damages of everyone and give everyone more health, causing more problems.

    Keep crying about pvp so that Turbine keeps running it further into the gutter.

    Like I said, the top priority is to add something to fight for that is fun, not to keep beefing up damage so that we are all dueling and 2 hitting eachother.

    If any damage needs to be changed, low end war damage needs to be upped so I'm not hitting a melee or an archer for 90.

  5. #185
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    ^Unless someone has an aug gem and major ward and maybe magic absorbing as well, you are not hitting for 90.

    Without any augs and with relatively high magic D base and absoring shield, lowest I ever get hit is maybe 110. Then with asug I could see that, but if you are retarded enough to continue with that damage type, that's your own fault.

    And you want to actually survive a 3v1 gank? Like any other character can survive that BS? If a melee and an archer attack my archer and a mage wars me, guess what? I'm dead. I try sliding to evade the war, I can't evade (you don't evade unless standing still really). The archer railing me from the side where it's harder to dodge, even with my missile D is hitting me hard too. I best I can hope to heal and run and survive until someone helps.

    No character can and should survive 3v1, period. That's retarded that you even expect that.

    And it's not all about 1v1, group battling matters as well... hell, it's group battles that I base my opinion on the fact that archers need to improve.

    The second a mage/melee team hits an archer, the archer is screwed. Why? Well, he has to either drop magic absorbing or suffer a huge melee penalty. Even when he whips out weeping without the melee D penalty to kill the melee, he can't really do much since he hardly evades (meanwhile having wars at him). So really, what I do is use composite bow against mage (high melee D) and hope to evade melee until someone gets him off me.

    Yet mages can handle everyone and anyone at the same time just clicking to them, no change of weapon or anything.

    Melees can do similiarly, while the weeping isn't as good as CB, at least they aren't forced to change weapon and shield constantly. They can have the best of both worlds with perfect light or dule shield that have AL and magic absorbing.

    Archers? None of that.

    This isn't about 1v1, it's about group battling.

    And Monster, you're kidding me, right? With my comp bow, +34%, I hardly get that if the melee has similar skill (521+ which is maxed/majored) and +42% from the salt/ash and buffs, +46% with mukkir item.

    If you take me at 50% speed, I'm putting out less DoT than any maxed melee does when I have a Weeping out. I stand no chance unless the melee is an absolute retard.

    Whatever... it's still not THAT imbalanced 1v1 archer/melee where I think it MUST be changed, but at the VERY least something needs to be done to make archers more viable for group fights.

  6. #186
    Registered User Kane99's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    War Magic alone costs 28 credits.

    If you made War Magic 6 or 16 credits I'd gladly be fine with it being underpowered and hitting for 90-110 while someone can dodge my war spells and chug away after tanking 3.

    But it costs 28, and I do expect to be able to fight more than 1 person, but that's not the case. They beefed up 1v1 so bad for melees and archers that fighting anymore than 1 is impossible, while it only takes 6 credits to specialize UA.

    Kind of a joke. That's the #1 reason I quit PvP months ago, but I do hope they change it or give something to fight for so that it isn't pointless, which it has been for years...

  7. #187
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster
    Bows are shield hollow. Are you talking about imbued bows? You realize how badly a rail gunning archer would out damage a melee? At most they usually just have to up their bar to half bar. They would basically be doing full power sword damage without have to power up their swings all the way. Not to mention those new cold arrows do rediculous damage and the 50% evades they could get with +32 melee D.

    Yea I'm talking about imbued bows. At the moment, imbued melee weapons far overpower weeping bow. Making imbued bows shield hollow would certainly make it more difficult for melees to kill archers, but you have to take into consideration the huge delay archers have entering and exiting combat to heal--it's a lot easier to heal as a melee than it is to heal as an archer.

    But no, this wouldn't unbalance things. But it would mean melees would need to learn to fight archers and not just tank the whole time.
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  8. #188
    Registered User Midgar's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilandros
    Yea I'm talking about imbued bows. At the moment, imbued melee weapons far overpower weeping bow. Making imbued bows shield hollow would certainly make it more difficult for melees to kill archers, but you have to take into consideration the huge delay archers have entering and exiting combat to heal--it's a lot easier to heal as a melee than it is to heal as an archer.

    But no, this wouldn't unbalance things. But it would mean melees would need to learn to fight archers and not just tank the whole time.
    Wait, a melee needs to learn to fight a archer? All the archer and the melee need to do is to hit the delete key, chug, and heal when necessary. There would be no skill involved even if they leveled the playing field in damage between melee and archer. You can't dodge each other so what skill is really involved, usually its just up close fighting. Strafing around his arrows and hitting won't kill the archer and the archer won't kill the melee like that either.
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  9. #189
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Midgar
    Wait, a melee needs to learn to fight a archer? All the archer and the melee need to do is to hit the delete key, chug, and heal when necessary. There would be no skill involved even if they leveled the playing field in damage between melee and archer. You can't dodge each other so what skill is really involved, usually its just up close fighting. Strafing around his arrows and hitting won't kill the archer and the archer won't kill the melee like that either.

    Skill is always a factor--granted it's less apparent in straight up melee vs melee fights--but it's still necessary.
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  10. #190
    Registered User Crybabye522's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    The main thing I can think of to help PvP would be this... why not at 275, make a quest that a level 275 can do, which brings him back down to level 5, but gives him special bonuses and such, so when hes level 275 REBORN(Yes the idea is from another game... but it works!)hes stronger than a regular 275 who is not reborn, but he has to work to level that high once again. Their are to many 275s on DT in my opinion, and I have been playing since 2000' so I have seen the various changes over the years. If everyone has their gear completely stripped, and were sent back to level 5, and basically everyone on DT had to start over, PvP would be at its best once again. You'd see towns of newbs fighting eachother, fighting over noob hunting places, and actually see people with store-bought weapons. I remember back in the day, when you'd see 5 noobs running around shoushi, mages in store-bought robes and melees with store-bought nekodes. Now, you commonly see ONE level 275 taking over dungeons like 'Olthoi Arcade' just to kill the low level noobs. what'd be more exciting is if you seen many noobs, all fighting eachother. And also... nowadays, you commonly see low level noobs with uber items, so basically I would say, start DT completely over, just for a month or two if you are worried about the negative risks, and see how things work out. If people continue quitting AC at this incredible rate, or DT just dies, then return it back to the way it was, you know? But think of the positive risk, many more people would come back to DT, and you'd actually bring back the best qualities that once existed in DT.
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  11. #191
    Registered User Raui's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    I think the only thing that really needs balance is Mage Wands for Human slayer properties -- i.e., adding elemental wands and modifyers on specific elements; and balancing archers.

    A prepared, well skilled archers will have HP, Wards, Chugs, and currently, a Dark Cold CS Max Damage Bow and wield Cold Spectral Arrows. Right now, archers can do 1 of 2 things


    1) Against an opponent without Missile Defense, a good archer can obliterate them.

    2) Against an opponent with Missile Defense, a good archer will either luck out with a kill against an inexperienced player, or have no hope in the world if the player knows how to heal himself.


    I faught an Xbower who hit me, through AL 650 Plate, an average of 70-80 noncrit, and crit 1/3 of the time at 150-160. Even if I'm dodging arrows, which I'm not all that bad at, I still get hit for an incredible amount of damage. Now, were I to counter that with Missile Defense, that same archer would hit me for nothing. He'll charge to 1/2 accuracy, shoot, and hit me for 70-80, maybe crit for 150-160, and by the time he gets the next one off, I can be healed or be in the process of healing. Presuming he hits me a second time, that's only a max of 320, which leaves me with 120 HP left. In that time I will have landed a healing spell, chugged a potion/meat/whatever, or healing kitted my way up.

    That archer will either be forced to continue throwing bolts at slow speeds until he gets very very lucky and lands 3 crits in a row and kills me, or until he dies from electroshock therapy vitae my Lightning Arc VII.



    To correct this strange bipolar situation, you can take out Missile Defense alltogether and decrease missile attack power by 20% across the board.

    Why will this help? Archers will, once again, be able to chain gun freely to any mage and melee. However, their damage will be lessened and tactics like using shields to force weeping will take over, and relying on 3-6 hitting an opponent will go away.

    It helps non archers because they hit for less and that gives them the ability to combat being chain gunned, and it helps archers because they are free to become more mobile and promotes more skill-based PVP versus Template Based PVP. It won't unbalance anything level wise, because skill checks are still in place.

    I only thing that the damage reduction should be for PVP. PVM damage that archers do is good as far as I'm concerned. As long as you can vuln them, archers hit well and have a solid purpose. At least IMO.
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  12. #192
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    I can't believe the ignorance on this thread, no wonder you guys have been screwing up PvP so much lately. Listen to the players who actually know about PvP, not the one's who theorize about it and don't know anything about it.

    You could improve PvP by nuking it back to pre tod.
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  13. #193
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    How about making it possible to kill a melee with 5 people attacking him. Maybe some way for a mage to actually kill a running target.

  14. #194
    Registered User FoS's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by Raui View Post
    I think the only thing that really needs balance is Mage Wands for Human slayer properties -- i.e., adding elemental wands and modifyers on specific elements; and balancing archers.

    A prepared, well skilled archers will have HP, Wards, Chugs, and currently, a Dark Cold CS Max Damage Bow and wield Cold Spectral Arrows. Right now, archers can do 1 of 2 things


    1) Against an opponent without Missile Defense, a good archer can obliterate them.

    2) Against an opponent with Missile Defense, a good archer will either luck out with a kill against an inexperienced player, or have no hope in the world if the player knows how to heal himself.


    I faught an Xbower who hit me, through AL 650 Plate, an average of 70-80 noncrit, and crit 1/3 of the time at 150-160. Even if I'm dodging arrows, which I'm not all that bad at, I still get hit for an incredible amount of damage. Now, were I to counter that with Missile Defense, that same archer would hit me for nothing. He'll charge to 1/2 accuracy, shoot, and hit me for 70-80, maybe crit for 150-160, and by the time he gets the next one off, I can be healed or be in the process of healing. Presuming he hits me a second time, that's only a max of 320, which leaves me with 120 HP left. In that time I will have landed a healing spell, chugged a potion/meat/whatever, or healing kitted my way up.

    That archer will either be forced to continue throwing bolts at slow speeds until he gets very very lucky and lands 3 crits in a row and kills me, or until he dies from electroshock therapy vitae my Lightning Arc VII.



    To correct this strange bipolar situation, you can take out Missile Defense alltogether and decrease missile attack power by 20% across the board.

    Why will this help? Archers will, once again, be able to chain gun freely to any mage and melee. However, their damage will be lessened and tactics like using shields to force weeping will take over, and relying on 3-6 hitting an opponent will go away.

    It helps non archers because they hit for less and that gives them the ability to combat being chain gunned, and it helps archers because they are free to become more mobile and promotes more skill-based PVP versus Template Based PVP. It won't unbalance anything level wise, because skill checks are still in place.

    I only thing that the damage reduction should be for PVP. PVM damage that archers do is good as far as I'm concerned. As long as you can vuln them, archers hit well and have a solid purpose. At least IMO.

    Who is this guy? Can you be anymore ignorant regarding archers?? Have you even PK'd with an archer? The decline of archers having an advantage at high levels has been a fast spiral downwards over the past 7 years. Let's see...take a lvl 200 melee and a lvl 200 archer; the melee will have missle d 95% of the time (the ones that don't haven't got enough credits yet or retarded). The said melee pulls out a CB sword/UA, with pages, foot and a +15 base attack mod along with his shield. The said archer must use a weeping bow to get through the shield, hence only having an effective +18% melee d from the bow. You tell me where archers are overpowered or have an advantage in this scenario. As for mages, even w/o missle d, a good PvP mage will not die easily to an archer, if he does at all. I do believe that the above quoted poster has his head firmly implanted within his nether region that it may take a skilled team of surgeons to remove it. I bet the dimwit doesn't even remember when bows had an attack mod on them.

  15. #195
    Registered User Raui's Avatar
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    Re: PvP Improvements

    Quote Originally Posted by FoS View Post
    Who is this guy? Can you be anymore ignorant regarding archers?? Have you even PK'd with an archer? The decline of archers having an advantage at high levels has been a fast spiral downwards over the past 7 years. Let's see...take a lvl 200 melee and a lvl 200 archer; the melee will have missle d 95% of the time (the ones that don't haven't got enough credits yet or retarded). The said melee pulls out a CB sword/UA, with pages, foot and a +15 base attack mod along with his shield. The said archer must use a weeping bow to get through the shield, hence only having an effective +18% melee d from the bow. You tell me where archers are overpowered or have an advantage in this scenario. As for mages, even w/o missle d, a good PvP mage will not die easily to an archer, if he does at all. I do believe that the above quoted poster has his head firmly implanted within his nether region that it may take a skilled team of surgeons to remove it. I bet the dimwit doesn't even remember when bows had an attack mod on them.
    Did you read the entire post? You proved two points that I stated in the exact post you quoted.


    There's two extremes to Archer PVP and they both revolve around Missile Defense. Xbowers who can hit you for 80-100 per shot on a mage, bowers for 70-90 on a mage. The other end of the spectrum is that archers have zero chance at victory. The breaking point is Missile Defense.

    Point one that you noted was exactly what I was saying; Archers are underpowered while Missile Defense is in the equasion. So, I will agree with you.

    However, if you take Missile Defense out of the equasion, speed shooting a sword will out damage him 2:1 with a weeper. It takes him 4 seconds to charge his attack, in that time you will have dealt 150-180+ damage to him as a bow spec archer. Assuming you don't loather his loot weapon, you will out damage him, the exception being CB's crit. At that point, you can throw a shield up, chug some salted meats, and use some tummy kits to get your HP up lightning quick. The likelihood of a sword character withdrawing from combat to heal in this scenario is high, and therefore you instantly gain the advantage.

    Moving that same scenario against a UA character, we're faced with stats versus stats. A UA character is more likely to take an archer down, but several factors are involved, just as is with the fight with the sword. Things like Armor, Weapon quality and knowing when and how to heal.

    If you find that you simply cannot out damage a character, pulling out a high melee D orb, which will afford you the % greater than the Weeping Bow, and even the odds with magic spells - that's what they're there for. If again you are met with failure because the opponent knows how to take his weapon off or because his/her magic defense is too high, then you have effectively met a character whose PVP ability and character are greater than your's and as such, a win in that situation would only be likely if you found a means to deminish his DOT or increase your's.

    Naturally, an unskilled PVP archer will stand still the entire fight and not place his shots from the sides or back, or utilize the "lead missile targets" hotkey you can set; and as such a loss in that situation would be his own fault, not Turbine's, not the PVP system's.

    A skilled archer would press the attack up close against a retreating enemy. Presuming they have the same chugs and kits you do, you'll still be out damaging him, and he will have to recoup. Counterwise, an archer can't dodge the melee, 100% so the idea is for a melee to gain the damage leverage early; that's what the CB/CS is for.

    Either way, it is dependant on the two players' knowledge of their character in the PVP world. Missile Defense, as it is now, is the deciding factor on whether or not an Archer wins or loses in most cases. As it stands, Melee/Archer fights that I see end up in the air, and ultimately boil down to who prepared their character more for a fight, and who utilized more tools that are at their disposal.




    I hope that clears up what I was trying to say.
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